Forum: Catapult Message Board

on 07/11/2010 11:41 pm, by quadmaster 3 stars

>How about making one more type of trebuchet; the flywheel trebuchet?

>Simply mount a bicycle wheel 3.2 diameters above the ground. Wrap it one
>time around with a weighted string. Spin the wheel and let the weight
>unwrap from the circumference of the wheel. The small mass or weigh will
>stop the wheel as it unwinds from the wheel’s outer edge; the mass will
>acquire all the motion.

Hey pequaide! Welcome to the forum!
Your idea is good, good enough that I'm considering building one. It is totally original, which I love. But no, it's not perpetual motion, and it's not a trebuchet. yet.
A trebuchet is powered by falling weights, whether directly or through pulleys and such. The design you describe has more in common with inertia (external link)

, but with better efficiency. Build a model of it, maybe even power it with a wheel and a falling weight, or draw some pictures. I can't wait to see it.

PS props for grammar and spelling. It will take you far.

on 07/12/2010 09:31 pm, by pequaide 3 stars

> Hey pequaide! Welcome to the forum!
> Your idea is good, good enough that I'm considering building one. It is totally original, which I love. But no, it's not perpetual motion, and it's not a trebuchet. yet.
> A trebuchet is powered by falling weights, whether directly or through pulleys and such. The design you describe has more in common with inertia (external link)

, but with better efficiency. Build a model of it, maybe even power it with a wheel and a falling weight, or draw some pictures. I can't wait to see it.
>
> PS props for grammar and spelling. It will take you far.

I think wheel trebuchets will produce higher velocities than other trebuchets: so I would not say they were (h)armless. But they are indeed armless.

‘Inertia II’ is very close to the idea, but you do not need the arm. A 2 meter wheel should throw nicely. I have thrown missiles that were 1/40th the mass of the wheel. So a 160 kilogram rim mass wheel could throw a 4 kilogram pumpkin. If the wheel has much of its mass inside the rim the wheel can have a greater mass. A 200 kilogram flywheel would probably still be in range to throw a 4 kilogram pumpkin with about one wrap of a tether around the circumference. A two meter diameter wheel with one wrap around the circumference will need 2 m * 3.14159 meters clearance with the ground. It looks like ‘inertia II’ has that much clearance and more.

Along side inertia II on the net is ‘bad to the Bone’. Bad to the Bone’ throws without a tether. The double arm monster does not slow down at the point of the throw. If the same mass of those arms was a wheel wrapped with a tether it would throw to the next county.

There are some pictures on the Wiki page; just place ‘wheel trebuchets’ in the Wiki page search window.

on 07/12/2010 11:56 pm, by Thomas 5 stars

>
> I think wheel trebuchets will produce higher velocities than other trebuchets: so I would not say they were (h)armless. But they are indeed armless.
>
> ‘Inertia II’ is very close to the idea, but you do not need the arm. A 2 meter wheel should throw nicely. I have thrown missiles that were 1/40th the mass of the wheel. So a 160 kilogram rim mass wheel could throw a 4 kilogram pumpkin. If the wheel has much of its mass inside the rim the wheel can have a greater mass. A 200 kilogram flywheel would probably still be in range to throw a 4 kilogram pumpkin with about one wrap of a tether around the circumference. A two meter diameter wheel with one wrap around the circumference will need 2 m * 3.14159 meters clearance with the ground. It looks like ‘inertia II’ has that much clearance and more.
>
> Along side inertia II on the net is ‘bad to the Bone’. Bad to the Bone’ throws without a tether. The double arm monster does not slow down at the point of the throw. If the same mass of those arms was a wheel wrapped with a tether it would throw to the next county.
>
> There are some pictures on the Wiki page; just place ‘wheel trebuchets’ in the Wiki page search window.

Actually there is already a very different machine called a wheel trebuchet. It's much like a normal treb but incorporates a wheel or part of one as the short arm. The theory behind it is that you get a vertical CW drop as the CW is suspended by a rope that runs around the wheel. In practice a normal HCW will give a nearly vertical drop and will have a less-massive arm, which requires less counterweight to accelerate. A video of one is here (external link)

.

Yours might better be called a flywheel treb as quadmaster says, if it could be classified as a treb at all. It seems not to incorporate a Class 1 lever, at least not in a form that I recognize, and that is what differentiates trebs from other hurling devices. I'd call it a centrifugal with a sling, or its lanyard equivalent.

on 07/13/2010 07:22 pm, by pequaide 3 stars

> Actually there is already a very different machine called a wheel trebuchet. It's much like a normal treb but incorporates a wheel or part of one as the short arm. The theory behind it is that you get a vertical CW drop as the CW is suspended by a rope that runs around the wheel. In practice a normal HCW will give a nearly vertical drop and will have a less-massive arm, which requires less counterweight to accelerate. A video of one is here (external link)

.
>
> Yours might better be called a flywheel treb as quadmaster says, if it could be classified as a treb at all. It seems not to incorporate a Class 1 lever, at least not in a form that I recognize, and that is what differentiates trebs from other hurling devices. I'd call it a centrifugal with a sling, or its lanyard equivalent.

Is it the lever or the tether that makes it a trebuchet?

The MIT TEP trebuchet is a classic medieval trebuchet; it only looks like a wheel trebuchet. It incorporates several interesting concepts.

The large beige half disk mass (on which the experimenter sprayed TEP for Tau Epsilon Phi) act as a pulley wheel of an Atwood’s.

The trebuchet is an Atwood’s machine. The barbell masses are part of an imbalanced wheel, they act as the accelerating mass of an Atwood’s. The barbell weights pull down the right side of the beige TEP half moon. The thrown mass slides under the barbell masses before they hit the ground.

In the TEP trebuchet the thrown mass is accelerated with the arm when the throwing arm tightens the tether. This acceleration is the same as the wheel trebuchet; at least the current models. The thrown mass of the wheel trebuchet is accelerated with the wheel and then released. When the tether tightens, in the wheel trebuchet, the momentum transfer begins. In the TEP trebuchet the momentum transfer begins when the thrown mass lifts from the ground.

The throwing arm appears ridged so that little motion is lost in the flexing of the arm. A wheel has little flexing as well.

When the TEP’s thrown mass (What is that thing does anybody know?) clears the sled run, and lifts, it begins to absorb the momentum of the entire system. It absorbs some of the momentum of the TEP half moon mass, the arm, and the Atwood’s mass (until the barbell masses hits the ground). The radius at the point where the thrown mass leaves the ground, from the sled run, is roughly equal to the length of the arm. This make it similar to a wheel trebuchet; but not exactly like it.

I am guessing that the system is half efficient. The video scans away from the trebuchet to watch the thrown mass. I would be more interested in what the TEP half moon, barbells masses, and arm are doing. How do they stop? How much motion is remaining in the barbell masses before they hit the ground; or was most of the motion given to the thrown mass?

on 07/14/2010 12:16 am, by Thomas 5 stars

>
> Is it the lever or the tether that makes it a trebuchet?
>
> The MIT TEP trebuchet is a classic medieval trebuchet; it only looks like a wheel trebuchet. It incorporates several interesting concepts.
>
> The large beige half disk mass (on which the experimenter sprayed TEP for Tau Epsilon Phi) act as a pulley wheel of an Atwood’s.
>
> The trebuchet is an Atwood’s machine. The barbell masses are part of an imbalanced wheel, they act as the accelerating mass of an Atwood’s. The barbell weights pull down the right side of the beige TEP half moon. The thrown mass slides under the barbell masses before they hit the ground.
>
> In the TEP trebuchet the thrown mass is accelerated with the arm when the throwing arm tightens the tether. This acceleration is the same as the wheel trebuchet; at least the current models. The thrown mass of the wheel trebuchet is accelerated with the wheel and then released. When the tether tightens, in the wheel trebuchet, the momentum transfer begins. In the TEP trebuchet the momentum transfer begins when the thrown mass lifts from the ground.
>
> The throwing arm appears ridged so that little motion is lost in the flexing of the arm. A wheel has little flexing as well.
>
> When the TEP’s thrown mass (What is that thing does anybody know?) clears the sled run, and lifts, it begins to absorb the momentum of the entire system. It absorbs some of the momentum of the TEP half moon mass, the arm, and the Atwood’s mass (until the barbell masses hits the ground). The radius at the point where the thrown mass leaves the ground, from the sled run, is roughly equal to the length of the arm. This make it similar to a wheel trebuchet; but not exactly like it.
>
> I am guessing that the system is half efficient. The video scans away from the trebuchet to watch the thrown mass. I would be more interested in what the TEP half moon, barbells masses, and arm are doing. How do they stop? How much motion is remaining in the barbell masses before they hit the ground; or was most of the motion given to the thrown mass?
>>

You aren't listening. The term "wheel treb" is already taken. You are appropriating it for your machine. You call what's widely known as a wheel treb an Attwood trebuchet? Whoever heard of one of those? Can you post links to two examples using that terminology?

"Traditional" wheel trebs aren't notable for being more efficient than regular HCWs, but some people are seduced by the straight drop and ignore the drawbacks.

It's the Class 1 lever that defines the trebuchet. Slings are used by other types of catapults as well. Or lanyards (tethers, in your rather personalized terminology).

on 07/13/2010 12:30 pm, by quadmaster 3 stars

No reason it can't be made a treb, though.
Here's a _very_ crude model in phun I made up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74nb0qXg0tc (external link)

on 07/14/2010 07:31 am, by Walker 4 stars

It's another MRT, a "Multi Rotation Treb".

The so-called "Wheel Treb" is indeed a trebuchet as it is a gravity driven leverage engine which uses a sling.
Do not let the wheel fool you into beliving that it is armless
because the wheel is a Class 1 lever built as a circle. It still has a fulcrum and opposing ends.
I want mine to have wire spokes, please.

Here's where it gets rough; proper grammer is great and I appreciate the usage thereof but I would rather see proper understanding of principle:
"SHOULD" is not a part of trebuchet engineering.
"PROVE IT" is.
I know it sounds harsh. I want you to succeed so I'm going to push you a bit. I don't care if you like being pushed or not, you need to build the thing and start understanding what you're working with.
1) A two meter diameter wheel is not going to be enough except for small payloads.
2) Quaddy's YouTube model is a good start but needs to go a lot faster. Move the position of the drive string closer to the center and the rim will be moving faster than the rate of CW fall. either that or start thinking of a motor drive.
3) Or give it a torsion bundle. Reminder: the diameter of the wheel must be twice the length a common onager type TA.
As near as I can tell, most competition torsion-pults have arms exceeding 7 feet in length so your wheel will have to be 14 feet across at minimum.
4) Timing the release can be a treat but by trial and arroe, ~er~ trial and terror, ~um~ trial and error you can adjust the sling length to release at the proper trajectory.
5) If that's MIT, I have lost all respect for them due to their lack of a proper trigger. Their treb is normal in everyway except for the radial hanger connection which allows for a constant length of short arm affect. I have a few old designs like that, too. Maybe that is one of my old throw-away designs.
6) I don't believe you really read all the way down here.
7) Build for a 10-Lb projectile so we all have something to compare.

If I sound crabby it's because I am.
Where's my coffee.

Walker

on 07/15/2010 07:04 am, by pequaide 3 stars

> It's another MRT, a "Multi Rotation Treb".
>
> The so-called "Wheel Treb" is indeed a trebuchet as it is a gravity driven leverage engine which uses a sling.
> Do not let the wheel fool you into beliving that it is armless
> because the wheel is a Class 1 lever built as a circle. It still has a fulcrum and opposing ends.
> I want mine to have wire spokes, please.
>
> Here's where it gets rough; proper grammer is great and I appreciate the usage thereof but I would rather see proper understanding of principle:
> "SHOULD" is not a part of trebuchet engineering.
> "PROVE IT" is.
> I know it sounds harsh. I want you to succeed so I'm going to push you a bit. I don't care if you like being pushed or not, you need to build the thing and start understanding what you're working with.
> 1) A two meter diameter wheel is not going to be enough except for small payloads.
> 2) Quaddy's YouTube model is a good start but needs to go a lot faster. Move the position of the drive string closer to the center and the rim will be moving faster than the rate of CW fall. either that or start thinking of a motor drive.
> 3) Or give it a torsion bundle. Reminder: the diameter of the wheel must be twice the length a common onager type TA.
> As near as I can tell, most competition torsion-pults have arms exceeding 7 feet in length so your wheel will have to be 14 feet across at minimum.
> 4) Timing the release can be a treat but by trial and arroe, ~er~ trial and terror, ~um~ trial and error you can adjust the sling length to release at the proper trajectory.
> 5) If that's MIT, I have lost all respect for them due to their lack of a proper trigger. Their treb is normal in everyway except for the radial hanger connection which allows for a constant length of short arm affect. I have a few old designs like that, too. Maybe that is one of my old throw-away designs.
> 6) I don't believe you really read all the way down here.
> 7) Build for a 10-Lb projectile so we all have something to compare.
>
> If I sound crabby it's because I am.
> Where's my coffee.
>
> Walker

There are catapults that have levers but they are not trebuchets because they do not utilize the centrifugal effect of a tethered mass. These tetherless catapults can’t throw the missile faster than the motion of the arm; trebuchets can throw the missile even if the arm becomes stopped; and they throw much faster than the highest velocity of the arm. I would also argue that a wheel is a lever; in fact it is an infinite number of levers attached to the same fulcrum.

The two words ‘wheel trebuchets’ adequately describe the object being discussed; but they do not specify that the wheel has a large mass. This wheel mass is used to store momentum from a falling mass as in an Atwood’s. Therefore the words ‘flywheel trebuchets’ are even better; as you both suggested.

I agree that spelling and grammar are important; I also know that we can talk until we are blue in the face.

Answers to Walker:

1. I have a working 4 kilogram model that throws 75 grams about 38 meters. I have a 40 kilogram model that I think will easily throw 1 kg 10 times that far.

2. I am thinking of a bicycle type gear drive to achieve about 12 m/sec.

3. Nope: Experiments show that the weighted tether will do a motion grabbing unwind for at least one circumference. The 18 inch model has a 54 inch tether. The 40 inch model has a 10 foot tether.

4. Correct; or the angle of release.

5. Could be your old model.

6. But I did.

7. I am using a 40 to 1 wheel to missile mass ratios. So your 10 lbs missile would need a 400 lbs rim mass flywheel. I am asking a scrap metal dealer for a flywheel in the 300 lbs range; so we will see what he comes up with. I already have an 8 foot frame adequate for 400 pounds. Of course I could use a smaller mass ratio.

Thanks for your input.

on 07/15/2010 11:06 pm, by Walker 4 stars

> There are catapults that have levers but they are not trebuchets because they do not utilize the centrifugal effect of a tethered mass.

The Hurl dot org has a long standing glossary that most of us here are used to. Hearing strange terms in common application or common words in strange application may be off-putting for some but I'm willing to work with you.
That ok with you, Quaddy?

The device you describe is called a spoon-a-pult around here. It is a torsion catapult and does not quality as a trebuchet due to the specifics of gravity VS torsion.
We tend to use "Catapult" as torsion specific.

I would have used "centripetal" and not centrifugal due to the nature of the sling's out-swing. No biggy, I hear that used incorrectly quite a lot.

> These tetherless catapults can’t throw the missile faster than the motion of the arm

True statement. Spoonapults suck. But please call it a sling and not a tether. A tether is a leash designed to prevent things from getting away.

> Trebuchets can throw the missile even if the arm becomes stopped;

Yes, but not well.

> and they throw much faster than the highest velocity of the arm.

You're preaching to the choir, brother.

> I would also argue that a wheel is a lever; in fact it is an infinite number of levers attached to the same fulcrum.

That's a cheap argument. Don't crap on me when I'm defending you.

> The two words ‘wheel trebuchets’ adequately describe the object being discussed.

No, they do not.
There are "Wheel Thebuchets already in usage that do not use the wheel as the arm.

> The two words ‘wheel trebuchets’ adequately describe the object being discussed but they do not specify that the wheel has a large mass. This wheel mass is used to store momentum from a falling mass as in an Atwood’s. Therefore the words ‘flywheel trebuchets’ are even better; as you both suggested.

Can you give me a link for "Atwood's". That term is strange.
Also, I don't believe the mass of the wheel is essential as long as the kinetic energy of the drive weight can keep it turning against the pull of the projectile's centripetal energy. Moreover, how long will the spinning wheel take to slow down after the throw? You need to rethink.

> I agree that spelling and grammar are important; I also know that we can talk until we are blue in the face.

My ancestors painted their faces blue and marched into battle naked, ya bloody Saxon.
lol

> 2. I am thinking of a bicycle type gear drive to achieve about 12 m/sec.

12 meters per sec? 12 meters of what?
Curvilinear rim surface, I hope. How does that work out in RPMs?
Anyway, go for the gear. Get as much speed into it as possible. I advocate using an electric motor which, although it looses the trebuchet classification would still fall within the Multi Rotation class.

> 3. Nope: Experiments show that the weighted tether will do a motion grabbing unwind for at least one circumference.

Sorry, I can't make heads or tails out of that statement except that you disagree with using torsion to drive the wheel.
And I hope you don't weight your 'tether'. That could be painfull.

That's all I have time for.
I've already given you more time than many feel you deserve. I believe in the principle of the circular arm even if we disagree on how best to make it work.

Best of luck, attached is a photo of a wheel-less wheel treb.

Walker

Forum: Catapult Message Board

(h)armless wheel treb

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Mediaplayer Simple mp3 or flv Player {mediaplayer [ mp3="Complete URL to the mp3 to include." ] [ flv="Complete URL to the flv to include." ] [ style="One of:mini\|normal\|maxi\|multi" ] }
Insert Module Displays a module inlined in page. More parameters can be added, not supported by UI. {module module="Module name as known in Tikiwiki." [ float="left\|right\|none" ] [ decoration="y\|n" ] [ flip="y\|n" ] [ max="y\|n" ] [ np="0\|1" ] [ notitle="y\|n" ] }
Mouse Over Create a mouseover feature on some text {MOUSEOVER( label="Text displayed on the page. The body is the mouseover content" [ url="Destination link when moused-over text is clicked. Use http:// for external links" ] [ text="DEPRECATED Text displayed on the mouseover. The body contains the text of the page." ] [ width="Mouse over box width. Default: 400px" ] [ height="Mouse over box height. Default: 200px" ] [ offsetx="Shifts the overlay to the right by the specified amount of pixels in relation to the cursor. Default: 5px" ] [ offsety="Shifts the overlay to the bottom by the specified amount of pixels in relation to the cursor. Default: 0px" ] [ parse="y\|n, parse the body of the plugin as wiki content. (Default to y)" ] [ bgcolor="Default: #F5F5F5" ] [ textcolor="#FFFFFF" ] [ sticky="y\|n, when enabled, popup stays visible until an other one is displayed or it is clicked." ] [ padding="Default: 5px" ] )} Mouseover text if param label exists. Page text if text param exists {MOUSEOVER}
Quote Quote text by surrounding the text with a box, like the [QUOTE] BBCode {QUOTE( [ replyto="Name of the quoted person." ] )} Quoted text {QUOTE}
Remarks Box Displays a comment, tip, note or warning box {REMARKSBOX( type="tip\|comment\|note\|warning" title="Label displayed above the remark." [ highlight="y\|n" ] [ icon="Icon ID." ] )} remarks text {REMARKSBOX}
RSS Feed Inserts an RSS feed output. {rss id="List of feed IDs separated by colons. ex: feedId:feedId2" [ max="Amount of results displayed." ] [ date="0\|1" ] [ desc="0\|1\|max length" ] [ author="0\|1" ] }
Sort Sorts the plugin content in the wiki page {SORT( [ sort="asc\|desc\|shuffle" ] )} Data to sort, one entry per line. {SORT}
Split Split a page into rows and columns {split [ joincols="y\|n Generate the colspan attribute if columns are missing" ] [ fixedsize="y\|n Generate the width attribute on the columns" ] [ colsize="?" ] [ first="col\|line" ] [ edit="y\|n Display edit icon for each section" ] [ customclass="add a class to customize the design" ] }
Subscript Displays text in subscript. {SUB( )} text {SUB}
Superscript Displays text in superscript (exponent). {SUP( )} text {SUP}
Thumbnail Displays the thumbnail for an image {THUMB( [ file="File ID from the file gallery." ] [ id="Image ID from the image gallery." ] [ image="URL to the image." ] [ max="Maximum width or height for the image." ] [ float="left\|right\|none" ] [ url="Link target of the image." ] [ original="y\|n" ] [ sticky="y\|n" ] )} description {THUMB}
Youtube Display youtube video in a wiki page {youtube movie="URL to the Youtube video" [ width="Width in pixels" ] [ height="Height in pixels" ] [ quality="quality" ] }